Episode 97: Laura Hankin, author of A Special Place for Women
Just released on paperback, and already in TV development, A Special Place for Women, tells the story of a New York City club where only the most important women receive an invitation.
But one undercover reporter is about to infiltrate this female-run secret society and expose their secrets.
Laura shares how she was inspired by the experience of entering an exclusive all women’s club and relating to that universal feeling of “I’m not one of the cool girls”, which got her thinking about the idea of belonging.
Books Mentioned:
A Special Place for Women by Laura Hankin (Bookshop.org / Amazon.com )
Happy & You Know It by Laura Hankin (Bookshop.org / Amazon.com )
The Daydreams by Laura Hankin (on Goodreads)
Truth be Told by Kathleen Barber (Bookshop.org / Amazon.com )
Book Lovers by Emily Henry (Bookshop.org / Amazon.com )
Marrying the Ketchups by Jennifer Close (Bookshop.org / Amazon.com )
At Least You Have Your Health by Madi Sinha (Bookshop.org / Amazon.com )
Bonus: Mari Andrew’s iceberg illustration that Laura references. (Mari’s website)
Connect with the author:
Transcript:
** Transcript created using AI (so please forgive the typos!) **
Lainey 0:00
I am here with Laura Hankin to talk about A Special Place for Women. And I hear a rumor that this is going to be maybe made int o a TV show. So I'm definitely going to put her on the spot about that one. Because not every day do I get to talk to an author whose book is going to the screen. So it's kind of exciting. So, Laura, thank you for joining me. And where are you joining me from?
Laura Hankin 0:20
Thank you for having me. I am joining you from Washington, DC, nation's capitol.
Lainey 0:26
I loved this book, this was so much fun. I loved how you kind of from my perspective, bent genres like yes, it's women's fiction. Yes, it's got an arc and a character who goes through this great kind of growth curve. But it's also got a few elements of magic. It's also got a little bit of suspense in there. Like, I love how you brought these different genres together. I'm excited to ask you about some of that. But why don't we start if anyone hasn't seen this book, which, honestly, it's been everywhere, but it just came out in paperback right, very recently. So if folks aren't familiar with A Special Place for Women, can you start by telling them a little bit about the book?
Laura Hankin 1:00
Yeah, absolutely. And I love that you said that about genre because it's so true. When people ask me what genre this book is, I'm always like, fantastic question. No, the answer that especially is for women is about a journalist named Gillian, who is in desperate need of a story to kickstart her career. And so she decides that she's going to try to infiltrate this secret club for women that's made up of the tastemaker girl bosses of New York City, you know, they're sort of rumored to be like the hot female Illuminati basically, you know, uncovered some pretty wild secrets and has to decide if she wants to expose them or join them.
Lainey 1:38
And I love I love like, how she faces that dilemma, right? Expose them versus join them, you know, she starts with a really clear, like, I'm just gonna go in and blow this thing apart and show what it is right. And by halfway through the book, she's like, Wait, there's some good and lots going on with this secret society. And maybe I shouldn't be so judgmental. And it's really interesting, her growth curve there.
Laura Hankin 1:57
Yeah, that's exactly what I wanted to convey with this book, like so much about judgment. And we are so quick to judge one another, and like, really rushed to put people in different boxes. And, you know, what would happen if we all took a little bit more time and, and tried to see people fully?
Lainey 2:14
That's a great thing. Well, it makes me want to ask about your inspiration. Was that what you started with? Or was it like an idea for a scene or like, what was the first like grain that led to this book?
Laura Hankin 2:24
A while ago, when I was living in New York, there, you know, there were a bunch of these types of places popping up like these women only co working spaces or clubs. And there was one in particular that was quite big and quite popular. It was all over Instagram. And it felt like all the cool girls in New York, were joining it. And a friend of mine was a member. And she invited me to come join her for coffee there as a guest. And I I was just so excited to go because I was like, Oh, I could be one of the cool girls. And I walked in and just immediately felt so out of place. I was like, Oh, I'm not one of the girls. I see. You know, I've like the the anecdote that I always tell about it is that I, I was in this place where it was like running from day job to day job. And my life felt like it was such a mess. And I was in the elevator with this woman who was talking to her friend, and she was saying, how's it biggest struggle in her life was that it was really hard dating a celebrity chef, because he was never free for brunch. It was just like, these are not my people. But it did make me think so much about belonging, because I was like, Oh, I bet that if they had seen me and embraced me with these open arms, I would have been all about it. So I wanted to just think more about a character who didn't really belong in a place like this being forced to put herself in this place.
Lainey 3:49
And did it did it change along the way as you know, as writers we end up doing many revisions in the first version very rarely looks like the inversion. Is there anything without giving spoilers, anything readers might be surprised to know is different than the first original versions of this book.
Laura Hankin 4:04
Um, one of the bigger things is there's a little bit of a love triangle in this book, although it's definitely not like a you know, team, Jacob team. What is his name? Yeah, it's not like his mentor. Yes, yeah, team where it will be there. But it's, I think, like pretty much everybody who reads this book is on one team. But in the first draft, the other guy was way more of a jerk. And I think my editor was like, You need to give us a little something more here. Like maybe you don't need to make us truly torn about who she should choose, but at least let us see why she is drawn to this other. So that was a big change. But you know, you mentioned the TV thing. I am adapting it for TV right now. And it's been this like fascinating opportunity to go back to your book, you know, two years after you wrote it and be like what change Just would you make now that it's been out in the world? And you know, that's been pretty
Lainey 5:04
interesting? Well, no, I have a question about that, because I didn't realize that you're doing you're involved are doing in addition. So very often, when a book goes to screen, it changes dramatically. And part of that is the people working on the screen version are not the person who wrote the book. And I'm thinking of like Kathleen Barber's, Truth be Told, there's quite dramatic differences. In fact, the point of view, it's a great both as a book and an Apple TV show. But like the point of view is different than the TV show, like the characters like the characters are the same, but they flipped the point of view. And they made some big changes in how some of the characters looked and their ethnicity and all kinds of things, which, all of which I would say improved on it for TV, but like, are you able to, like do you want to? Or are you able to move so dramatically away from the book? Are you keeping closer to it? Like, it seems like that'll get harder as the author?
Laura Hankin 5:51
Yeah. So the good thing is that, you know, a previous book of mine, never announced this, but like, has been also optioned, and somebody else adapted it, but was really wonderful about letting me into the process on that, and, you know, letting me give feedback. And she over the course of adapting it realized that it had to change pretty dramatically for TV, like to the point of making a different person, the main character of the whole thing. And so I think I got a really good educational experience in that where I was like, wow, you just gotta let it go. And like, realize it just do what's best for the the medium that it's going to be in. I think now, when I think about A Special Place for Women on TV, I'm like, Oh, sure, make sure if this is going to work better make that change. That's fine. You know, even before starting to write the script, I like, already had ideas of some things that I wanted to change. All that being said, though, I think it's not changing dramatically, or like the heart of it isn't changing. It sounds like the way that maybe truth be told, did. Yeah, so maybe I'm hearing slightly closer to
Lainey 7:00
what's interesting is that one change the point of view, but I would say the heart of the book didn't change to your point, right? Because stories can be told many different ways of, I'm reworking my current novel. My second one is a jewel timeline. And it's like 80% of the book is going to be different. But the heart of the book is the same, which is hard to explain to someone that I'm going to rewrite 80% of the words in the book, but the actual heart of what I'm saying is not changing.
Laura Hankin 7:21
So yeah, it's wild. It's like this particular kind of magic that you can do.
Lainey 7:27
So when you're matching up, what do you call it a screen adaptation, like a screenplay? What's it referred to a script like?
Laura Hankin 7:33
This one, since it's for television, and I wrote the script for the first episode. It's the pilot script.
Lainey 7:39
Okay. So when you're doing that, what's the biggest difference for those who are a little farther apart from this world? Like, how does it differ and how you approach it?
Laura Hankin 7:46
Yeah, so you're thinking so much more about visuals and dialogue, as opposed to you know what's going on inside characters heads, because you can't spend a lot of time describing all of that stuff. You probably don't want to do the thing where it's just like constant voiceover narrating and somebody's thoughts. So yeah, I think you want to just make everything a lot more active. And yeah, focus on on the dialogue, which honestly, dialogue and plot are my favorite parts of writing novels anyway. kind of works out.
Lainey 8:17
That's fascinating. It must actually be an interesting, almost like an interesting exercise to try and come up with a visual for each thing that you can no longer show is internal dialogue, like that be an interesting writing exercise, even for novels right on show versus tell to think about how could I do this instead of internal monologue?
Laura Hankin 8:33
Oh, yeah, exactly. And the other thing, too, is thinking about, like, if you have a scene that's just taking place between two characters, like at a table, is there a more interesting place that they could be doing?
Lainey 8:45
Right, I'm having fun with my next book with that, because it's got some adventure. She's an adventure travel Instagrammer. So I'm like, Okay, could they do this while they're skydiving? Could they do this while they're running towards the edge of a cliff and like all kinds of fun opportunities to write I'm expecting to read this book, and everything will be them jumping off a cliff.
So now that this is out there, and it's been so well received A Special Place for Women, I mean, I wanted to have you on the podcast because I pick the best of women's fiction. And I've seen so many people raving about this book, and I knew that it was among the best out there even before I read it. So like, has there been anything as right as readers are reading it and giving you feedback? Anything that's been surprising or that has warmed your heart, just in terms of reader feedback?
Laura Hankin 9:26
Oh, yeah. I've had a few people reach out and be like, This is my favorite book ever. Which I think when people say that I die of joy. But you know, I think the other interesting thing is just like, how wildly different people's opinions can be. I think a lot of people love it. And some people are like, this book is way too weird for me and this, like, took me way too much by surprise, and I don't like genre bending, which is fine. Like some people don't like genre bending. That's fine. Like I literally I remember in the early days of of getting tagged reviews on Instagram. I got tagged in reviews back to back. The first one was like Jillian the main character. I've never related to a person more like she I love her so much. And then the like, the next review literally was like Jillian's a terrible person and but I was interested in her story. So the thing that really surprises you like, I think any author is just the wide variety of opinions that people will have.
Lainey 10:32
Isn't that wild? Well, I love to read like one endorsement of a book or review from another author. So let me quickly read one on this, which I think captures it lovely. And it's from Emily Henry. And I love what Emily says. She says, one of the smartest, sharpest and funniest books I've read in years, a novel that will keep you on the knife's edge between dread and delight, turning pages late into the night. Some books are meant to be devoured. This one does the devouring.
Laura Hankin 10:59
Coolest. I remember what I got that blurb just being like is Emily Henry a goddess?
Lainey 11:05
Yeah, but it's, it's so true. I read through this book. And like, I mean, I'm a fast reader. But I think this was like twice as fast as my normal books, because I was just like, flipping the pages wanted to see what happens. So it's a great book. Thank you. So let's see, let's talk about maybe advice for other writers, you've come very far very fast with your author career. I mean, many authors would be like, I want to be like Laura and already be reading a screen adaptation novel, how many? How many books do you have? This is number two. Number three?
Laura Hankin 11:36
Number three, it's funny, you should say that, like I, when I was younger, I published a book that did not do well at all, like, I don't know, not that many people read it. And I think it was very clearly a first book, it was sort of right on the edge between young adults and adults. And it just didn't fully know what it wanted to be. And then after that, I wrote a whole other book that didn't get published. And so it's funny that in some ways, yes, I have had a lot of success very fast. And in other ways, I feel like I was working on this for you know, seven years before.
Lainey 12:10
I love how you said that. Yeah, and it's a common theme on the podcast. So many writers share this that like, there's no such thing as an overnight success. Right? Like nobody suddenly pops onto the scene, right? So book in a year, and it becomes a New York Times bestseller, like what not met that person yet. I've met people who worked like 20 years on their debut and had an overnight success of their debut, right. Like, that's what it looks like. So yeah, that's I love that you brought that up?
Laura Hankin 12:33
Yeah, somebody I think Mari Andrews, that's her name. She's like a illustrator. And she has this great illustration of an iceberg. You know, and it's like, you see the tip of the iceberg. And that's the overnight success. And then everything under the water is like all the work and all the time that you took to get there.
Lainey 12:52
Right, exactly. So other than stick with it, don't give up keep writing put your button to cheer every day. What do you advise other writers are not in the game? That's a big debate. Actually, I do not write every single day.
Laura Hankin 13:04
I don't either, well, then I think it's helpful because it could become something that you feel like you have to do all the time. And I feel like I try to only do it on weekdays unless I'm running up against a deadline or something like that. Other advice. I mean, going along with the whole overnight success thing that we were just talking about, I think giving yourself the permission to be bad for a while is important. First, drafts are always going to be bad unless you don't feel that way. And then I'm very envious of you. But like, you know, I've written
Lainey 13:36
to rewrite my book, and it's on draft five. So
Laura Hankin 13:39
yeah, I mean, this book that I have coming out next year that I'm really excited about. And like that I love the idea of and I've written many books at this point, I wrote the first draft of that, and I had to rewrite like 20,000 words of it for the second draft, it's still really hard to write a for StarCraft, that is not that and you just have to, I think, acknowledge that and push through it.
Lainey 14:01
Are you a plotter or a pantser are somewhere in the middle?
Laura Hankin 14:04
I'm becoming more of a plotter. As I get more experienced with this, I think it is helpful to have at least some plot in place, but I don't like beat by beat scene by scene plot at all out. What about you?
Lainey 14:18
You know, my first one, I feel like it was more of a pantsing book. And then I tried to become more of a plotter. But I've also learned about myself. And if I plot it out to the nth degree, I don't even want to write it. Like if I get to the point that I know every single thing that's going to happen in every scene. I'm not I'm not excited anymore. And so it's just interesting how everybody's creative brain works. And I've just learned that about myself. And so I think I'm always going to be somewhere in the middle. Like even as much as I want to plot I think the reality is I'll never be 100% plotter.
Laura Hankin 14:44
I think living in the middle is great.
Lainey 14:46
So what's thewhat's the biggest thing you've had to learn or reading wise? What do you think's the biggest thing you've learned? Like a lot of writers they learn their own process, right? And there's no one right process to your point and it changes with every book and I've heard some writers tell me every book Because different, like some writers who are on the 20 have said like, oh, by the way, there is no one process you can for me what's changed for you and how you approach it? And what have you learned about your own process.
Laura Hankin 15:08
I mean, I think becoming more of a plotter over time has definitely changed. I've also learned that it's really helpful for me to just have a word count that I try to hit every day that I'm writing, you know, if I aim for 1000 words a day, it just gives me some structure. And I think that's something that you can definitely lack in the writing life unless you impose it upon yourself. So yeah, the more structure that I can give myself, the better to get to the 1000 per day, and she'll put it on a post it notes show, right like 252 52. And each time she reaches 250 words, she like crosses it off on the post it note and it makes her feel a sense of accomplishment. And from her,
Lainey 15:47
I have a question, I want to learn something from you. So like, when you're writing your first draft, or even your second draft, it makes sense to do like words per day. But then once you get into revisit, revising, like for me, I have a monster spreadsheet, and I kind of track how many scenes and what percent of the way I am through the book, just same thing. I'm trying to keep myself motivated. Otherwise, it feels like I'm just waiting in it forever. How do you manage your progress when you're revising? Do you just kind of chapters, but then you're going back and forth? Like how do you approach that
Laura Hankin 16:12
I think maybe revising isn't quite as hard for me as putting words on the page in the same way. So I don't need to motivate myself quite as much. Which is funny. Like, I don't know, if I ever thought when I was younger, that I'd be like, Oh, revising is the easier part. Because I think when I started out, I was like, No, everything I do has to be perfect. How could it be better, I'm so attached to it. And now I'm like, give me notes, rip it apart. I wish I could do a spreadsheet like you actually maybe I need to learn from you.
Lainey 16:41
Like most writers would cringe like, oh my goodness, a spreadsheet, but it just motivates me because I can see, you know, 10% I'm 12% and 14% of the way through. And so it just helps me see that I am making progress, even when it doesn't feel like it.
Laura Hankin 16:53
Yeah, that's smart. I just write down everything I need to do and a Word doc, and then I'll like, you know, bold it when I finished or something like,
Lainey 17:03
that's cool. That's another way to do it. Talking of learning from things and books, I would love to know if you've read any books that you admire or appreciate or have enjoyed recently.
Laura Hankin 17:13
Yeah, so I'm in the middle right now of Marrying the Ketchups by Jennifer Close. And it's really good. It's about this family like this extended family and the restaurants that they run in a Chicago suburb. And she's just so good at character study and writing these like flawed, full, complicated people who are really just kind of struggling to be humans in the world. And she's so funny, I'm really enjoying that one marrying the ketchups. And then another book that I liked recently was At Least You Have Your Health by Madi Sinha, which is about a gynecologist who gets fired. I believe she gets fired from her job at a, you know, practice. And she ends up taking a job as the gynecologist for this like wellness app startup company. So it's her getting sucked into this world of like wealthy women who want on demand on call medicine, and sort of trying to figure out where her own line is between, like wellness and medicine and what she's willing to do for these people. It's great. It's a real page turner and very,
Lainey 18:23
so it's interesting, I actually have a friend who does that, who is like a private wellness doctor for a network of patients. And it's been fascinating hearing her stories of how that goes. And it's very different from being like a GP and a general practitioner and a normal practice or regular practice.
Laura Hankin 18:36
Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And I think what the author does so well is show that like, there are some really good things about this world, because a lot of doctors in general practice, like don't have the time to really spend with each patient that they want, but also the way in which she's sort of selling her soul and other ways to appease because you gotta keep the patients happy, you know?
Lainey 18:58
Right. Yeah. Right. Oh, two great recommendations. And I'll put those on the show notes in the show notes on the website so people can find the links to those books and your books as well. Question for you. Where do you hang out the most on social media? Oh, of course. I forgot to ask you the most important thing How the heck are you so funny on tick tock?
Laura Hankin 19:14
You're hysterical. Thank you. I think it helps that I have a performing background. I was a real theater nerd growing up. Yeah, I don't know. I go through real phases on tick tock, sometimes I'm like, I'm a queen of TiC tock. I understand this platform perfectly. And then I'll make you know, seven videos that nobody watches and are terrible. Yeah.
Lainey 19:36
Well, I'll also put the link to your tick tock because I love your tick tock. You're probably my favorite person to follow on tick tock right now. Like I love your stuff.
Laura Hankin 19:44
That is so nice. Thank you. Yeah, tick tock and Instagram is my other big one that I that I do a lot.
Lainey 19:51
Okay, before we wrap up. Is there anything that I haven't asked you that you love to talk about or want to bring up?
Laura Hankin 19:57
Oh my gosh, anything that I love to tell Talk about Well, I love to talk about early 2000s nostalgia and that's, that's what I'm writing my next book on, which will be out next year, so called the daydreams. You can add it to good reads. Now, tell us a bit about it. What's that there? What can we know about it? Yes. So it's about it's sort of like Daisy Jones and the six by Taylor Jenkins read but set in the Britney Justin era of the early 2000s. So it's about the stars of a TV show a musical TV show, sort of like High School Musical. And at the height of their fame, they just combust spectacularly on live TV. Now, it's 13 years later, they've all gone in very different directions. And they come back together for a reunion special because you know, we were all so obsessed and continue to be obsessed with like, getting these castes back together to come like the friends reunion that just happened. Right? Like, exactly, that this one, you know, there lots of old betrayals and secrets and unfinished business and it's a lot of fun. That sounds like so much fun. Okay,
Lainey 21:01
I'm gonna go put it on my, my Goodreads shelf and also work out how I get my hands on an arc of it as well.
Laura Hankin 21:06
Yeah, yeah. We'll get you one.
Lainey 21:09
Awesome. Well, Laura, thank you for joining me today. This has been so fun, so much fun and congrats on the TV and the paperback coming out and encourage folks to go check it out. It is a great read. I appreciate you making time with everything else that's going on in your life right now.
Laura Hankin 21:24
Oh, this was so fun. I was really looking forward to it and you over delivered. So thank you.